Getting a Good First Latch

In the final episode of 2024, Heather and Maureen chat about the all-important first latch—why it’s crucial and how to make sure you get it right. They’ll also share some life updates and talk about weaning, including tips for making the transition easier for both you and baby.

Tune in for a mix of breastfeeding advice, personal stories, and a little reflection on the season—because the first latch and the last moments of weaning are both big milestones on your parenting journey!

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Resources/Links:
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Transcript

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Milk Minute. Welcome everybody and happy early Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, all of it. New Year, yeah. New Year, whatever you're celebrating, may you be out there in your comfiest sweatpants celebrating it.

Absolutely. And we are here today with our last episode of the season and we are excited to chat with you guys one more time before the end of 2024, which is so crazy. I know. This year really flew by for me. I mean, I had a whole baby, but still, still, I feel like this is one of the fastest years of my entire life.

I agree. I, I don't, I don't really know what happened, but here we are. So, I think to start off today, well, I guess to start off, I'm going to tell you guys, we're going to talk a little bit about In the meat of our episode, like getting a good first latch and advocating for yourself in the hospital because holiday births.

So anyone in the next like month can be extra challenging, but we're going to get into that later. Before we did that, I just wanted to ask Heather, how you're doing because you have. Well, I was going to say, you've weaned your baby, but your baby has weaned you. Yeah, that was not a choice, actually. And I'm gonna cry.

Please do. This is a safe space. Oh my gosh, you know, like how many visits have I done with other people just holding their hand through it and, and, commiserating and being like, I'm so sorry that your baby decided they were done. And the choice is you either pump and you keep it up and you keep trying to latch or you just let it go.

Yeah. And I, I can let it go. Like I I'm letting it go. She's almost 14 months old. And she's happy, she's healthy, you know, she's, she is like the definition of vitality, you know, she's one of those people you look at and she's like jolly and she's chubby and she's active and she's fantastic. She's so sweet.

I, I, here's the thing though. So, so our routine for the past. three or four months has been, she wakes up in the morning, I pick her up out of her crib, I take her out of her Guna Muna sleep sack, and I change her sound machine to this like really awesome playlist of sounds. It just kind of changes it. I forget, I don't even know what it's called, but we have the hatch system and it's like one of those nice little feel good playlists.

And We nurse only on the right boob for like 10 to 20 minutes. And we just like have peace. I watched the sunrise through her window and it is so nice. And she, you know, slaps me in the face a little bit and fish hooks me with love, does her sweet little thing. And then maybe one time during the day she'd do a drive by feeding, but not usually.

And then I fed her before bed. Yeah. However, What has been happening for the past two weeks is that at night, she would start biting me. And this makes sense because she would eat like two entire fish tacos. And then I'd try to put a boob in her mouth. And she didn't bite me hard, but it was hard enough that it hurt.

And she was trying to play. And she was also trying to let me know that, like, this is, you know, I'm not getting anything out of this. You know, like I'm stuffed. I am ready to play. I don't need to just lay here and I don't need to lay here and suck. And she's got half of one tooth still. That's the other thing that kills me.

I'm like, you still look like a giant 10 month old because you have half of one tooth and it's on the bottom and it just like, Gets you in that one spot. Yeah. It's just a little pointy part. Yeah. She gums down on me with that one little tooth and she smiles and giggles and I do everything that I tell my clients to do.

I pull her in all the way and I low key suffocate her and she thinks it's hysterical. Even when I don't laugh, I don't make eye contact with her, I don't scream and she thinks it's the funniest thing in the whole world. Does she blow like a raspberry on your boob when you do that? No, she doesn't, but she has done that before, which I love.

But yeah, so it started happening at night and I was like, oh, it's probably just because she's full. So then she nursed in the morning just fine, except five days ago, she started biting me in the morning. And, and just never wanted to, I tried throughout the day and she bit me again, tried in the evening, bit me again.

And she's fine. Like she's moved on. She's just moved on. She doesn't care. She thinks they're funny. She wants to poke them and she wants to blow raspberries, but she's just not, not into it anymore. And I can't pump. I'm not in a position to pump. I wouldn't recommend it to a client. Why would I? Because I'm insane.

And because I can't let go of, because I can't let go. She's my last baby and I'm freaking out and I'm, I'm upset. And I started crying and my husband said, Oh, I'm sorry, babe. That is really sad. You should be sad about that. Oh God. You're like, that was not helpful. Thanks. But he was trying, you know, it's just, you know, I think one of the things that it appears that you're struggling with the most is like a loss of this kind of like special bond, like special intimacy you have with that child.

That's different from the others. That. You know, both of you benefited from, and I wonder, have you been able to mimic that with like different time you're spending with her? That's not like, that's not just about breastfeeding. Not really. My other kids are such chaos. I don't have that with them. You know, the older kids, I can't catch them.

They're just, they're nut jobs. And with Marty, like, in the morning, I've tried to lay down with her. Not lay down, but like, in the chair, have her lay down on me and just snuggle. And she's hungry. She wants to get up and eat sausage and oatmeal. I wonder if you could bring her, like, a little, like, food pouch and go, like, sit on the chair and just have her, like, suck down some applesauce while you get, like, your little baby snuggles before the day starts.

Yeah, I might be able to do that. Also I did rock her before bed last night, but then I felt guilty because I was like, well, is this just going to cause problems? No, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, Heather. I know. If, if she gets used to being rocked to sleep, then you can break the habit when you need to.

Yeah. Who cares? It's your last baby, do whatever you want. Oh, and then my husband was like, now that you're not nursing before bed, you want me to put her to bed and rock her? And I was like, no! You're like, don't you dare! Yeah, oh gosh, and I'm so emotional about it. Yeah, this, this is what we warn people about.

So it's, I don't know why, it's not sad. It's also hormones. It's hormones. It's, it's sad, but it's not sad. It's happy. I'm glad that she's developmentally moving on to the next phase of her life, but like, it was five seconds ago that I just told you I was pregnant. Yeah. Well, it's sad and happy, right? Those are not mutually exclusive feelings.

You can be sad that something is ending. and joyful that a new thing is beginning, we can feel both of those things. We're complex beings. Yes, I am. I'm very complex. You know, your baby doesn't feel quite the same way about it, but you can. You can feel, you can grieve that relationship that's changing and be happy that you're developing a new one.

Yeah, I think I'm also just, it highlights my relationship with my other kids where for the past year, not that I've been ignoring them, but you know, taking care of a young baby, like a baby, there are only so many resources that can go around that come from mom and a lot of my time has been spent with Marty and the other two kids, I feel like they're just feral.

You know, they're just, and I'm kind of sad. I'm like, are you just going to join that pack? And now we're just in total feral mode and we don't have any peace. Like now I'm going to have to pull it together, restructure, decide what this new family looks like with three kids that are like, not attached to me all the time.

I don't have an excuse to leave the chaos to go nurse her anymore. Right. That's a hard thing. And she wants to be in, up and around it. She's going to have to get one of those Montessori stools for the kitchen. So she can watch everything cause she's. Into everything. But yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm just like everybody else over here.

Emotional, sad, happy. Also like, I feel old. Yeah, I hear ya. Something about like being an older mom and then nursing the baby, it makes you feel younger. Cause you're like, yeah, but I'm not that old because I'm nursing. Like, look at me nursing this baby. And now that it's done, it's like, am I just old now?

I mean, also like being sure that was your last baby kind of makes you feel like you're like, Oh, do I start menopause tomorrow? Like what? Exactly. Exactly. Like, when did the hot flashes and night sweats start? Soon, probably. No, 2024 is going to go down in history as our collective last year of breastfeeding.

Oh my God. Yeah, for real. Like it's not happening. The vasectomy is done. And it's over. That's weird too, like closing that chapter of child rearing, and also like, thank God. Yeah. Yeah, like, just so nobody out there gets the wrong impression, we are both very happy not to have any more children in fact, but also you're allowed to feel other emotions about decisions that you are sure about.

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty wild. I'm excited that we get to define this next chapter. Yeah. But it is, it's bizarre. I've been having babies for 11 years. I've had a baby for 11 years. Yeah, that's crazy. That's a long chunk of time. But I'm, I'm ready. I think I can serve other people and do other things and still be a good mom.

It's just also a little bit more rote when you're taking care of a baby. It's like diaper, boob, play toy, go out, nap, you know, when they're older, it's just so many more things. I think in one month from now, I think early next year, you're going to feel great. Like, I, I think you'll, your hormonal stuff will have evened out.

I think you'll suddenly be like, Oh my gosh, like working out is actually making me lose weight again. Yeah, that's true. You know, like you'll, all the stuff about, Lactation that we don't love will actually be behind you and you'll be used to your new routine, right? You need at least like a couple weeks to really like not be fighting a new routine anymore.

I think when you find a new routine, when your hormones are where they're supposed to be, you will feel Really good. Yeah. I also have lost weight. So when she went down to like two nursing sessions a day, I noticed my appetite changed completely and thank God because the whole time I'm breastfeeding, I'm like starving and I can't control my portions.

And I have no self-control and I saw it change like almost Immediately where I was like, Oh, I can actually go four hours without eating food. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. And I don't know. I did have pneumonia also, which kind of gave me a jumpstart on, which started this whole process. So fuck you pneumonia, but yeah, all the meds that I had to take for it, but I lost 16 pounds between pneumonia and now like, yeah, I've been losing like more than two pounds a week.

It's just like falling off me. Yeah, and I feel better. Mm hmm. I do. I feel better. I feel more like me like the whole time I'm breastfeeding. I sort of feel like I'm walking around in someone else's body, which is very bizarre you like Everything is just a little bit different. Mm hmm. It is. Well, make sure you're still eating enough Because sometimes that appetite thing swings too far in the other direction and you're like, Oh, I actually have skipped breakfast and lunch the past four days.

Don't do that. No, I don't. I have a protein shake every morning and then I do a chomps stick at like 10 a. m. Then I have lunch and dinner, but it's easier to control my portions now. So it's a very normal amount of calories. Maybe, can we like have a celebration? Can we have like a joint weaning party? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Because, like, I only weaned, like, what, a month or two before you did. Yeah, I know. Except your baby will just nurse forever and doesn't bite you and reject you. Yeah, but, you know, there are pros and cons to both of these situations. I know. I mean, I know babies that just, like, nurse till they're four years old, or kids that nurse till they're four.

Not mine. My husband goes, Yeah, I guess we just have those kind of babies that just, when they're done, they're done. There's something about your boobs. And I was like, No. I will kill you. How dare he say that? There's something about your boobs. Screw you. He was trying to be nice and just can't figure out what to say.

I'm going to give you a list of really great things right now. You met your goal of breastfeeding for a year. You went past that. You exclusively breastfed, right? You didn't, you, you, I know you used a little donor milk, but that was a goal you had. You got through, like, the hardest first two weeks of breastfeeding ever.

Yeah. And you have a happy baby, a healthy baby, you are healthy, your family is whole, and it's okay to, you know, it's kind of like finishing a book, Heather, where you get to the end and you're like, oh man, it's kind of a bummer that it's over, but you're also like, what a cool fucking book I just read. You know?

That's in there. I did that. It's in my brain forever. You did that. It's amazing. You're a badass. And now you get to do new badass things. Thank you. And, Marty does drink cow's milk like she never had a problem with it. That's so Marty, where she's just like, all done, I'm not drinking this. And then one day she's just like, I've always loved this and I would like to crush 10 ounces of it.

And you're like, what? Yeah. So, we don't have a problem there anymore either. She just does it. Yeah. All good. Good. All good things. Yes. And it's still sad. That's fine. Do you think I need to get an X ray of her mouth to see if she has any other teeth in there? No, I think she'll be fine. I think, I think if she gets to a year and a half without any more teeth, then you can ask your doctor about it.

But I bet, I bet she's going to pop that one tooth out and then like a month later, grow five at once. Yeah, probably. I can't even imagine what she would look like with teeth. Or you're gonna get her little baby dentures. It'll be fine. She's gonna be the kid from Stranger Things with no teeth. Oh my god.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, so, so we did it. And it's, it's done now. So. Yeah. Yay. And if you're out there following along the journey with us, congratulations to you as well on your weaning journey, because we had a lot of people that have reached out and said that they got pregnant at the same time I did. And they listened to the other sister podcast that we have called beyond the boob where we followed my whole pregnancy, birth and postnatal.

And yeah, so we did it guys. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think from here, I'd like to thank a couple of new patrons in our Patreon and then chat a little bit about people who are having their babies right now. Awesome. All right. Well I'd like to thank today four new patrons. They are Taylor McKenzie, Adrian Webb, Lynn Huynh, and Allie Hamlin.

Thank you guys so much for joining our Patreon. And if you guys don't know, Patreon is really what makes this podcast go. We have paid memberships through Patreon where you guys support our content and it's, it's essentially what has. Allowed this entire podcast to be created and produced and brought to your ears right now.

That's right. And this is the last episode of the season. So if you are a Patreon member, you will get all of the updates and announcements about the coming seasons. And we will still try to post some content about our families and the holidays. And we always try to post some tips and tricks in there every once in a while.

So hopefully we get a minute to do that over this break. So we can give you guys even more. Behind the scenes. One of the cool things about our Patreon is you do get the ability to direct message us, ask us questions, put in requests for different episodes and things like that. So if you have been like, you know, on the fence about becoming a patron, you should just do it right now.

You should go, you should join, and see what you think, and, you know, if you can't do that, consider just sharing our episodes with a friend to help us reach more ears. And that link should be in the show notes, but the website is Patreon. com slash MilkMinutePodcast. Alright, well today we thought we might talk about getting a good first latch and one of the things, one of the reasons I really wanted to do that is because it can be really hard to have a baby between Thanksgiving and New Year's.

Hospitals, Out of baseline, or usually kind of short staffed, but it's even worse around the holidays. Everybody's calling off, everybody's sick, everybody's taking time, understandably. However we're still having babies. People are still going in every single day to birth their babies. But, you might be in a situation where, oh, baby's coming in.

There's no lactation on duty tonight, or, oh, lactation's out the whole week, actually. And so we wanted to give you some tips for how to survive those 24 to 48 hours in the hospital with your new baby. Yeah, and you know, from what I know about lactation in the hospital environment, it really is usually just Monday through Friday.

Like, we don't have Full 24 hour coverage most of the time. So if your baby is born on a weekend or a holiday, you need to know how best to get a good start for yourself and to troubleshoot any kind of painful latch that you might be having because early pain very early on means by the time you're discharged, your nipples are busted because you're using them every two hours.

So we want to make sure that we give you some tips and tricks and troubleshooting some pain. Absolutely. Okay, so let's talk about when the baby first comes out and comes up onto your chest. So that's normally what we do now. We no longer cut the cord and sweep the baby away to a warmer. That used to be the way, but the way now is baby comes out and goes right up on your chest.

The cord is still attached and there are some babies out there in the world that the minute they pop out, they start rooting and looking for a boob. Not all of them. Yeah. I feel like. Every like 20 babies I see one like this. Yep. So mostly I remind people that there is no pressure to get that baby to latch immediately.

Like if you see that your baby is giving feeding cues, but your legs are still up in stirrups, your placenta's still in, you're getting stuff, Or, you know, the room's just kind of chaotic or you're leaning completely weird in the bed or you're on all fours. Like, no, that's the worst. You look over people's like arm and head are hanging off the side of the bed.

Someone stitching up their bottom. You're like, what is happening? There's eight people in the room. Right. And then sometimes like nurses and you know, God bless you. If nurses. Are actually thinking about lactation at that moment. Mm-hmm . If you're like leaning in a very weird way in the bed and, and the baby's trying to latch.

There are some nurses I've seen who are like, I'll help you, and they just try to get the baby on right there, . Yeah. Which is like great and good, but only if you can get a really good latch and you can be intentional about positioning. And I would say 99% of the time in that situation, it's probably not gonna be the best slot.

Get it's not. And that sets you up for some. potential bruising early that can turn into more serious pain later. So it's okay to breathe and wait, let them clean up the room, get an ice pack on your butt, sit up in bed and then get a really good position. So you can do what you need to do to get the good first latch.

And it's okay to ask if you have any questions. You know, at this point there's lots of like extra staff around. Usually it's okay to ask people to back up if they're not doing something or even to just like step outside for a minute if they will because it starts to feel really crowded in there, you know, for the first 20, 30 minutes postpartum.

It can feel really chaotic. It can be really hard to focus. Your baby also will have a hard time focusing if they're just getting all this stimuli from every direction. It's also okay to ask someone to just watch you do it. So if somebody else is trying to grab your boob and get it in the baby's mouth, if you're fine with it, that's fine.

But especially if you're like a new mom and you're trying to figure this out on your own, it's okay to say, Hey, I would really like some help, but would you mind just watching me while I do it? And then just stopping me if you see that I'm doing something. Weird. Yeah, because I do think that like leaning into your intuition and starting to build that confidence early because you're going home like these people aren't going home with you.

They're not going to be there holding your boob for you. So if somebody is holding your boob every single time you're latching that baby before you leave the hospital, you're going to be in for it when you get home. So start early. You be the one and just have them watch. Yeah, and honestly, like, that's why, you know, personally, I really rarely do that, but I know it's sort of the norm for a lot of the nurses in the hospital to be very hands on, and if you want that, and you're like, that makes me comfortable, that's great, but my tip to you would be then, before they leave the room, to say, hey, Could you show me how you did that?

I would like to know how to do that. You know, even if your baby's kind of done feeding, latch him on again. They'll probably latch on again. Yeah. Yes. And that's a whole other podcast. But now it's time for my ridiculous metaphor about club sandwiches. Okay. So. Everybody has ordered a club sandwich at some point in their life that is like that quadruple decker, four pieces of bread.

You're like, how in the hell am I gonna get that in my mouth? And that's pretty much what your baby is thinking when it looks at your boob. So everybody eats a club sandwich the exact same way. Every single person squares up with the sandwich. Shoulders straight in front of it. They take it with both hands.

They squish it down, make the diameter of the sandwich smaller. They tip their head back, open their mouth really wide, put their bottom jaw on and wrap their top jaw around. Okay. Here's what they don't do and if they do it run get off of that date train immediately They are not normal So we would never squish the club sandwich down then turn it vertically and try to eat it Okay, and that's like one of the number one things that I see people do Yeah is when they go to make a boob sandwich.

They do it from their perspective and not the babies. So if your baby is in cradle position or cross cradle and laying in front of you, instead of just grabbing your breast from the side in a way that feels normal to you, if you squish your breast horizontally, that is a vertical club sandwich for the baby.

So you actually have to put your hand all the way under your boob and make your hand into more of a U shape, squeeze your breast that way. So it'll be a horizontal club sandwich for the baby. The mound that you're making when you compress your breast has to be parallel to baby's mouth opening. Yes. So just make sure that you are actually decreasing the diameter for the baby, not increasing it.

The other thing is, just a quick note while Maureen's talking about breast implants. Making the mound. I hate the word mound, but it's right up there with moist, but make sure that your fingers aren't too close to the tip of the nipple where they're going to be in the baby's way of the mouth because your baby can't see very well.

And it has a lot of nerve endings in the lips. And if your baby's lips touch your finger, they're going to get confused and they're going to think that's a nipple and try to latch onto that. Yeah. Yeah, they're going to break the latch and they're going to be like, Oh, is this what I'm supposed to be latching onto?

So you want to be close enough down that you're creating a shape that is smaller for the baby to get in its mouth, but not so close that you're touching the baby's mouth. Yeah. And usually for most people, that's having your forefinger and your thumb just behind your areola. But sometimes we have really large areolas, so sometimes we need to be on top of it a little bit, and sometimes we have really tiny areolas, right, so, you know, that doesn't quite apply.

But, you know, we want to make sure that you've got at least, like, an inch on either side of your nipple where you're not touching your breast. Mm hmm. Okay, the other thing people definitely don't do with club sandwiches is put their chin to their chest and then try to eat it. Okay, so My, I'll tell you my metaphor for this in a minute.

Okay, so if you notice that your baby's chin is to their chest, either neutral or tucked, you're going to need to move the whole baby down So the baby can look up and extend because otherwise they are going, they might still latch on, but it's going to be painful. It's going to be shallow. They're not going to be able to get that nipple tissue all the way to the back of their throat.

So checking that chin, making sure baby's in a position where they can actually look up towards the nipple. The other thing people don't do with club sandwiches, like I said, they are squared up. They do not turn sideways in their chair and then try to eat. So making sure that when baby is Going to latch, their chest is facing your body.

There should be no part of the baby's chest that's facing the ceiling. Because if it is, the baby's head is going to have to turn to face the nipple. So make sure your baby's shoulders and hips are lined up, essentially. Chin, shoulders, hips, everything in line. We want a straight airway. You're going to have a much better latch with a straight airway.

So what was your metaphor for this? So I kind of have to read the room before I do this one. It's not the best metaphor for everyone, but I usually ask like, hey, You know, when you were in college, did you ever see anyone do a beer bong? Like a really good one. Right. And you see them and those guys, they like widen their stance and bend their knees and kind of arch their back a little bit and throw their head back and then just down it.

And I'm like, honestly. That's kind of what we want your baby to look like right now. Like, we want their body, you know, their hips like flexed in, their feet supported, their body lined up from hip to shoulder to head, and we want their shoulders You know to be where your support ends so their head can go all the way back and their mouth can open all the way up And they can do their baby beer bong Not the best metaphor for everybody Yes, absolutely But it works, it really works.

There's a big There's a lot of people I support who it just kind of like clicks when I say that they're like You Oh, okay. I know what you mean now. Yeah. We're not sipping tea. Okay guys. Like we are opening, opening the throat and letting it in. We also want to watch that baby's bottom arm. So we want to make sure that the baby's arm is not between the baby and your chest.

Yeah. And they love to do that. Cause you know, they're so. Super flexed and tight when they're born. They're like little russet potatoes. You're like, can't get the arms out of there. So have your partner or the nurse sweep the baby's arm down and around your boob. So we want them hugging your boob like a bear, a big booby bear hug.

That way there's nothing between the baby and you just baby. It's just the baby. That way we don't have any distance. If they sneak that lower arm in, it throws off their alignment. Their, their whole torso gets twisted. And honestly, like I'm a big, a big proponent for lining up the hips in like an anterior pelvic tilt like that, where like we're tucking the pelvic, the tailbone under a little bit and the knees are flexed in.

Often, I'll shove a pillow under their toes, you know, because when we've got these babies in the cradle and we've got like one hand to hold them and one hand on the boob, their little butts and their legs are kind of like flying out in space and that to their nervous system says that they are not safe.

And that they need to put energy to stabilizing and not to doing anything else. Yeah, and think about how weird gravity is for babies. They just spent their entire life thus far floating in liquid. And suddenly the liquid's gone, they get squeezed out and dropped and then lifted up. That motion is supposed to set off a lot of the other reflexes that we use for sucking.

So babies that are C section babies or babies that fly out of the vagina, like really don't have a ton of time. Sometimes we see those babies have like some weird reflexive things going on, some delays. Yeah. Like mine just flew out. Yeah. So, Sometimes also they will have their legs crossed. So, you know, like in that position that they were in, in your, in your uterus.

So if your baby's legs are crossed, uncross them, and you can even roll up a burp cloth and stick it between their legs, like a little, little leg support in between to keep their hips aligned. And the way I think about this is like, if you're at the gym and you're doing bicep curls, your legs are not going to be crossed while you're doing those.

You know, what's going to tighten your jaw? Your jaw is going to tighten as you're trying to do that because you're unstable, and so you're going to tighten everything you can to try to make sure that all those muscle groups can be worked correctly. Yeah. Square it up. And that's a good thing to remember, I think, just for that whole body positioning.

Like, if I kicked a chair out from under you, you would clench your jaw and hunch your shoulders up to your head to protect yourself. Right? And if, you know, even if like you were standing somewhere and like something like touched your leg, you know, when you weren't expecting it to, you would clench your jaw and hike your shoulders up to your ears.

And we just really want your baby's nervous system to be regulated for feeding. Like we want that vagus nerve stimulated in the proper way, in a way that's telling your body, hey, this is like rest and digest and safety and nothing else. Thanks. Yes, okay quick note about the boppy because everybody's listening to this thinking doesn't the boppy just do all that for you?

Let me tell you how I feel about the boppy. I hate that. It's rounded. Yeah, so it's Rounded towards you so the baby will fall into the hole into the crevasse between you and the boppy It's also like not meant for normal sized human beings I don't know who the boppy actually fits around not most of my clients You No, but do you want to hear something really bad?

Always. Despite knowing all of this, I only ever used Boppy. Of course. Someone just bought me, like, two of them with Griffin, you know, so I used it with him. And then I threw them in the box, and I had about for Lyra, and I was like, Fine. Whatever. Fine. Whatever. I will say, yes, and of course you did that. That does not surprise me at all.

I do love the boppy for modified tummy time and I love the boppy for supported sitting when they get older. So you will use it eventually, but for nursing. I really love the breast friend pillow, and I really like the twin version of the breast friend pillow, even for singletons, because it supports your arms.

So there's so much real estate. It's flat and square, so the baby's not going to fall into the crevasse, and you can lay the baby on it. It's long enough that it supports their legs and your arms. And you can even set your phone on it on the other side because it is flat and square. It's just a much better setup.

Okay, so let's get the nipple in the baby's actual mouth, but first let me tell you about the baby's mouth. So number one, we have a soft palate for a reason. The reason we have a soft palate is so the tongue can compress the nipple against the soft palate and squirt the milk to the back of the throat.

So the tongue is actually in a U shape. So the tongue, I can't, how do you describe that? When you stick your tongue out and you make it into a cup. Yep. Yeah. When you make the hot dog tongue. When you make the hot dog tongue, there you go. The sides of the tongue should make contact with the roof of the baby's mouth to create this internal tunnel of suction.

And then the lips are external suction. So, When your baby is older and their tongue is super strong, the lips are barely involved at all. They can actually nurse and smile at you at the same time because their tongues are so strong. They can nurse and like talk to you and giggle and be ridiculous. Yeah, all the while their cup tongue is just wiggling back and forth.

But the younger babies, they need that second layer of suction to hang on because your nipple tissue hasn't been molded to the back of their throat easily. The plumbing hasn't gotten going yet. So there's just, we're going to need the lips too. So on the roof of the baby's mouth is the sucking reflex.

And we see a lot of problems with people that have shorter nipples or flat nipples are definitely inverted nipples. And simultaneously, that may have oral restrictions where they just can't pull it in. Or also really big nipples where we just can't get it far enough in. Yeah. Yeah. Or babies with really small mouths.

So those are the four things that we're sort of looking for here that we might need to make more of that breast sandwich. So we do our boob sandwich, okay? And we, I like to. After we get the baby lined up, I like to sort of rake the nipple down the nose mouth complex a couple times. From nose to mouth, nose to mouth, and then about the third time I'll hold it on the nose, and you'll see the baby kind of nuzzle, look up, and open their mouth.

And when that happens, you must lift them from the shoulders onto the breast. Because they can't do that. Yeah, you bring the baby to you. Yes, bring the baby to you. They can't get to the kitchen. You have to bring them to the kitchen. And pretty much everybody's going to do the opposite on their first latch.

They're going to lean forward and shove the boob in baby's mouth. Yes. And then think about this. You're not getting the baby's boob. lips to the nipple. You're trying to put your tip of your nipple into their face. Yeah. All the way to the throat. You're there opening their mouth and you're trying to get that nipple to poke them in the soft palate to trigger that suck reflex.

And that's why like one of the reasons we kind of start nose to nipple, right. Is so when they, Toss their head back, ready to chug milk. Your nipple is pointing up at their palate. Yes. It's really cool actually when you actually can get there and you do it and you see them start suckling, then nobody moves.

So don't drop the boob sandwich. You hold the sandwich for right now. Okay. So this is everybody's question. How long do I have to hold the sandwich? Obviously we don't want you sitting like a soldier the entire time. Yeah. However, if you let go immediately, your breast will slide right out of the baby's mouth.

Okay. Yeah. You want to give the baby a chance to get good suction and also your breast a chance to mold to their mouth. Your first, honestly, first couple of weeks of feeding are probably going to involve you being more hands on. Especially as your milk comes in, and your breasts get really firm and that makes it like just a little bit more challenging to stretch that nipple tissue out all the way.

Yes. So before you let go, I want you to check three things. Number one, how does it feel? So, the following adjectives I'm fine with. Weird, tugging, or pulling. All of those are okay. But if you feel sharp, pinching, or burning, that is not okay. That doesn't mean we stop immediately. That means we have to adjust some things, so if you are feeling sharp, pinchy, or burny, I want you to look down and see if the baby's chin is tucked.

So usually that's it. Yeah, it's pretty much that every time. Almost every time. We either need to just scooch the baby down, like half an inch even, just like a little bit. Down by, by down I mean not down towards your feet, towards their feet. Yeah, and honestly, like, I like the cross cradle hold better for early feeds than the cradle hold for this reason, because when you're holding your baby in the crook of your arm, like in your elbow space, usually your arm is on the back of their head.

And that is pushing their chin forward and it's making less space in their mouth versus if we are coming up from the bottom of the baby and have our hand behind their shoulders and their head's just wiggling out in space, which I know freaks people out, but it's fine. It's not going to roll off. It's not, it's not going to fall off, but it is rolling around, which is great because then we get it to roll back and then we have all this beautiful oral space in which to feed.

Yes, every human being on the planet closes their mouth when you push on the back of their head.

You know, you know, okay, so You check the chin is it tucked or even neutral like if it's neutral we need it to extend a little bit So just scooch the baby down a bit then look and see if your boob tissue is filling up the baby's nose So does it look like there's just a lot of breast up front? If that's the case, tuck the baby's butt in closer to you and let their head relax back a little bit.

So in that situation, we're really looking for the baby to dig their chin down deeper into the breast and kind of get more of that like lower breast in their mouth, which angles the nipple up. So like I said, we're trying to poke, poke. The roof of the mouth. So by digging the chin in, we are elevating that nipple towards the roof of the mouth.

Yeah, I, I really often, when I see this happening with people, you know, we'll put a hand behind their arm and really firmly push baby's hips and shoulders into mom's belly. And I'll say, this is the pressure I need you to hold on your baby right now. And I mean, the neck is a hinge, right? As soon as we do that, The head gets pushed further back, the chin gets pushed further up, and we feed better.

Yep. I like to think about them as like little levers. Like if you hold the baby out in front of you, they're so tight whenever they're first born. If you push the butt in, the head comes out. The head goes in, the butt comes out. So it just kind of goes back and forth. So we want the butt in and the head to come out.

And then you reevaluate. If it's still pinching, burning, or sharp, the bottom lip is most likely tucked. The baby's bottom lip is most likely tucked. So, you may not be able to see it because there's a lot of boob going on. And if you try to pull back your breast to look at it, You'll probably lose suction and break the latch.

So I need you, but probably your partner would be better because your hands are already full to sneak their finger in down between the chin and your breast and flick the baby's chin down and that will pop the bottom lip out which will allow more breast tissue to enter the back of the throat and we won't have that bottom lip impeding it anymore.

Because what happens is if we can't get that tissue all the way to the back of the throat, the baby's still going to suckle, but they're going to compress that nipple against their hard palate instead of the soft palate. And that turns into the car in the junkyard situation where it just gets squished.

over and over and over until it flattens. And then on the edge, we have a very thin line that appears on the end of the nipple. And that's called a compression stripe. And your partner, I always tell them, please check the nipple when your baby comes off the breast, just, she won't be able to see it. Most of our nipples are down and out and we don't, we can't see them and what they look like.

So when your baby pops off, have your partner do a quick nipple check, see if you have a Align a compression stripe on your nipple. If that's the case, we're not deep enough. We need to adjust or look in the baby's mouth or switch positions or something needs to change. Cause if you keep doing that over and over, that tissue will eventually break open.

And we will have a full wound. Yeah, and usually when I ask partners to help with this part, I will show them on their own face what I mean by flicking the chin down. And really what it is, is like, your chin has a little bit of mobile skin, where you can kind of have your mouth shut and like wiggle your chin around.

And you have a frenulum. on your bottom lip, attaching your bottom lip to the rest of your tissue. So when you wiggle your chin, it wiggles your bottom lip. And so I do that to grown men all the time. I'm like, look at this, that's what I want you to do to your baby. Yeah. And what I see a lot is they, men are like, I'm going to do it so good.

And they'll like, try to hold the baby's chin down. And I'm like, Oh no, we're not holding the chin down. I just need you to flick it and get out just once. But I will say. Sometimes, the baby has popped on and off a couple times, and it could be wet, so there could be baby saliva all over the boob and all over the chin, or milk, and if that's the case, then take the baby off, wipe the baby down, wipe your breast down with a dry burp cloth, and then re latch, and then flick the chin down, because you'll be able to actually grab it, otherwise your finger will just keep slipping, you won't be able to pull.

For You won't be able to flick that chin down. Yeah. Yeah, it gets wet and messy sometimes. It's totally okay. It's also You know always okay to relatch your baby, you know, I think a lot of people are really afraid They're like I finally got them to latch and it doesn't feel good. So I don't want to get them off which is fine I usually say hey give it Couple minutes two or three minutes and then take them off and try again like your baby's fine.

It's okay You're not gonna traumatize them by relatching But also yeah, we do want them to get some milk and it's been hard to lash them So let them get a few sips and try again. Yes. Okay. So then the other thing is if you're It's still in pain after you do those three adjustments, take the baby off. So all three of those adjustments can happen in the first minute of nursing.

If really after the 30 seconds after all those are done, if it's not feeling good, break the latch by sticking your finger into the baby's mouth and flicking their tongue down to break that suction and then pop them off. And I like to keep my finger in the baby's mouth until they're totally clear of the nipple so they don't.

Chomp back down on the tip of the nipple by accident. I think of the finger more like a doorstop just like a nope You are clear and now we're good and then reposition and try again And sometimes that means doing a different position or just getting yourself in a better position Like maybe you need more room for your elbow so like put some pillows behind you vertically to create space between you and the back of the Hospital bed or the chair.

So you have more room or the baby's legs have more room to in football position, especially so just things like that. And if after that, you're like, I'm doing everything right. And it still hurts every time. Look in the baby's mouth. Yeah. And call somebody, phone a friend. You can use the nipple shield if you have to, to get through some, some pain in the beginning until you can get to see somebody.

Worst case scenario, you pump and you syringe feed until you can get in with the lactation consultant who, knows what's going on and knows how to evaluate for tongue ties and stuff. The lip, the upper lip, I really don't worry about too much. You can try flicking it up, like pulling up on the mustache area if it's super tucked.

But a lot of the time when you do that, you break the latch. So I'm least concerned about the top lip being tucked in, but I still look at that. It's just not high priority for me. Yeah, now what I really like to have people do, especially if you have your baby at like 9pm or 2am is when one of your postpartum nurses comes in to check, say, Hey, can you put in a request for a lactation to come see me tomorrow?

Because they're usually not there at night and also, you know, lactation comes to do their rounds and they already have a list of eight people to see, you know, so they often can't just come. Like as soon as you ask. So I'm like, Hey, ask them to come tomorrow. Just, just in case if you don't need them, great.

Say goodbye. But usually it's that first day or that second day, or we need help anyway. Maybe one problem has developed. Maybe you just have questions. They usually have their normal spiel. They'd like to give everybody anyway, just have them stop by and see if they are helpful to you. A lot of hospitals have policies where lactation doesn't see you until day two, like does not come in the first 24 hours.

So, please don't assume that they're coming just because you said you're breastfeeding. Yes, you have to request it often. Yeah. Yeah, so definitely ask. The worst that's gonna happen is they say, oh, we're really busy, but we'll get to you eventually instead of we'll get to you never. Yeah, exactly. And you know, one of the other things I like to remind people to, because interruptions to your sleep and your feeding are one of the hardest things about a hospital schedule.

And especially around the holidays, everybody is rushed, everybody is overworked. You are not a burden to the staff at the hospital, even if they treat you like you are. Correct. It is their job to care for you and to accommodate you. So if you are mid feed and they come in to do rounds, You can say, not right now.

They might not listen, but you can say that. If you just got your baby to sleep and a nurse comes in to do checks, you can say, not right now. Unless it's an emergency, not right now. Right, unless it's an emergency, you can have your partner sit outside in a chair outside your door. Which I've had lots of people do.

And if you say, my baby is asleep, I am going to sleep absolutely as long as they sleep. I do not care what they want to do, we are fine. You can do that, because rest is equally as important as feeding. Correct. Also, one thing I want to tell you is I hear from a lot of people that they are very frustrated by the different advice that they get from everybody about lactation.

So the first nurse said this, and the second nurse said this, and then the second day postpartum nurse said this, and then the lactation said this. But let me tell you, Lactation is a fluid process, and please don't think that they all don't know what they're talking about. It may be that the advice that you got initially made sense at that time, but no longer applies on day two.

It could also be that the lactation that came to see you knows from experience that this is probably where we're headed. And they're giving you some preemptive advice that will apply later. So it's always okay to double check and, and let them know, be like, Hey, this is the advice that I got yesterday.

Is this different now because we're in a new situation? Right, does this still work for us? Is this a preference thing or, you know, per provider or is this because something has changed? So you can always ask that so they can get some clarification. Don't think that you're going to make them feel stupid.

They should clarify if the advice is different, why that's the case. Yeah. And I see this a lot in our teaching hospitals when we have like three different residents coming in and peds and the midwives and the nurses and every single person gave different advice. It is absolutely okay to call them back in and say, Hey, so what am I actually supposed to do?

Yeah. Yeah. And why? Would you like to tell me why? And why? Yeah. You know, like a lot of the time too, the why is just, Oh, well we're just supposed to do that. And you're like, okay, well what if I didn't like, what if I didn't write down every diaper my kid had? What happens then? You know, what if I didn't write down how long we fed for every single time?

What happens then? Right. And also please know that some lactation consultants will do telehealth with you in the hospital. So like if, yeah, if they don't have what you need, you can find somebody that will do a telehealth with you from the hospital. And for my patients that come prenatally to see me, they're already in my system and I give them my emergency number that rings to my cell phone and I tell them I would rather hop on a quick 20 30 minute telehealth with you on a Saturday, then see you on Tuesday where everything's a mess.

Because Saturday to Tuesday can be a big change. Like sometimes people aren't even breastfeeding by then. I can mean the end of breastfeeding entirely. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I agree. Exactly. So please don't feel like you're burdening us. We understand the assignment. We know that it is time sensitive, and it's worth it to me to spend 20 to 30 minutes just having a very informal, like, sorry, I'm in my bathroom, but like, here's what's going on.

Oh, yeah. I've done like 6. 30am telehealth visits with people before. I mean, is it ideal? No. Am I gonna look like hell? Yes, and so are you, and it's fine. You know, we're gonna be in the same spot, but I'm gonna help you. Yeah, we're all in it together. We understand. So you are not a burden. You are a gem.

You are a miracle, and you just did a miraculous thing. You had a whole human. It's hard. You have to figure out how to get your A part of your body in their mouth to trigger their reflexes that they've never used before. So if it feels hard, it's because it kind of is. It is. It is, yeah. Birthing a human and feeding a human from your own body are monumental tasks that I don't think we should ever downplay.

They're really incredible things that we do. And you deserve recognition for that and appreciation for that. And you deserve to give yourself those things too. A hundred percent. And also rest assured that human beings brains are wired for creativity and curiosity. So we can always lean into that. Like I believe in the ability to troubleshoot these harder situations because we are humans, because These babies that are born are so malleable.

Like they learn so quick. So if in the first 24 hours, it looks like they don't know what they're doing. Give it a minute, you know, the next day they will. So just be creative. Remember, go back to the basics when everything's a mess, feed the baby, protect the milk supply. That's it. Happy holidays. All right.

So for today's award, I'm going to give it to Natalie Hobson who's been a long time listener who reached out to me and offered to make me some breast milk jewelry for free. She's, she's doing this now as a business and she is so wonderful. And she asked me all my little preferences that I had. And she asked me to mail her the milk.

And I also mailed her the True Knot. That I had dehydrated because Marty had a true knot in her cord and I sent her a couple placenta capsules because I had my placenta dehydrated as well and I haven't got them in the mail yet. It's going to be a surprise. I think it might even be here today. And so I'll post pictures in Patreon as soon as I get it, but she made me a ring and she also made me, I think a little pendant that has the true knot in it and I cannot wait.

And it was the most. Thoughtful gift that anyone has given me and it means so much and if I get it today after having Non consensually weaned. I will just probably cry the rest of the day. It's like the nicest gift that you could give somebody. So Natalie Hobson, thank you so much. I really appreciate you supporting me in this journey in so many different ways.

First by listening and then by reaching out and just like seeing how I'm doing, which was really nice and offering to do this for me with some really beautiful pieces. So if you all are interested. I can put Natalie's information in the show notes. I'll have to ask her the best way to get in touch with her to do your jewelry too.

If you're interested in that service, I'd love to order from her. Yeah. So we'll put that in the show notes for you and as well as Patrion and I'll post the pictures of it in Patrion as well. Yeah. So what, what award should we give her though? The keepsake queen. Yes. Natalie, You're the keepsake queen.

Thank you so much. I couldn't appreciate you more and I'm sending you all of our love during this holiday season. Thank you all so much for listening to our season finale of the Milk Minute Podcast. The way we change this big system that is not set up for lactating families is by educating ourselves, supporting our friends and long time listeners, and just, you know, really keeping ourselves together.

Educating our providers, but really, like, it's us together, ladies, that are, that's making this happen. Absolutely. If you want to give us a gift for this holiday season, please, please, please send this podcast to a new parents that you know and send them your favorite episode or the episode that made you laugh the most or one that you think will help them out the most right now.

Alright, well you all take care, hang in there, we know that the burden is high on moms during holiday season, so do what you need to do to find your own peace, and we will be doing the same. And we will catch you in 2025.