I Had A Baby and Now I Can't Sleep- Postpartum Insomnia with Cady Deitz

On this episode of Milk Minute, we're mixing things up with a real talk about postpartum insomnia. We're chatting with our amazingly courageous patient, Cady Deitz, who’s been open about her own struggles with sleepless nights after having her baby. Cady’s story is both eye-opening and relatable, and we’re diving into her experience to help you understand and tackle this tough spot in the postpartum journey. Tune in for some honest insights and tips!

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THANKS TO OUR NEW PATRONS: Rowan Goodman, Grace Steele Scarlett, Amy Sharp, Liz, and Michelle O'Donoghue!

Previous Episodes Mentioned in this Episode:
Ep. 28 - Insomnia Medications and Herbs during Lactation
Ep. 208 - Melatonin and Breastfeeding

Helpful Resources:
Infant Risk Center
LactMed
CBTI App

Prefer to read the transcript? Click Here 

Transcript

Maureen: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Milk Minute Podcast. 

Heather: Welcome, welcome. We are switching up our usual routine today to bring you a very unique perspective on postpartum insomnia by way of one of the sweetest and bravest patients of mine, Cady Dietz.

Cady has been openly sharing about her harrowing experience with postpartum insomnia after the birth of her little girl just over a couple short months ago, and she is hoping that sharing her experience is going to help others who are struggling. And I really wanted to take a deeper dive into what she was experiencing during that initial postpartum time, so we can better understand how to help our friends and maybe our family, our patients, and ourselves if the situation arises.

Maureen: Yeah, I definitely hope if you're listening and you're like, Oh, That sounds a little bit like me, that, you know, this is reaching you at the right time so that we can kind of avoid the worst case scenario and we can get you the help you need. I'm really excited to talk about this and I'm excited to basically do a case study with the patient today, which we don't get to do.

Heather: Yeah, how often does that happen? Never. Never. It's always like, here's the boring stats of here's what the patient did. 

Maureen: 24 year old, G2, P1. Yeah, no, we're not doing that today. 

Heather: She's sitting here in the recliner next to me. 

Maureen: Alright, before we take a break, we have some patrons to thank. 

Heather: We would like to thank Rowan Goodman, Grace Steele Scarlett, Amy Sharp, Liz, and Michelle O'Donoghue.

O’Donoghue. 

Maureen: Michelle O'Donoghue. Thank you guys so much for supporting us on Patreon, even when we do butcher your names. We really appreciate it and it is truly what helps us produce this podcast and keep producing it. If you guys want to join these incredible humans on our Patreon, you can do that at Patreon.

com slash Milk Minute Podcast. 

Heather: Let's take a minute to thank one of our sponsors. And when we come back, we are going to meet Cady and hear about her experience. 

Maureen: All right. Welcome back everybody. And welcome to the studio, Cady. 

Cady: Thank you for having me.

Heather: All right. So tell us a little bit about yourself just so people can imagine you in their mind's eye while they're showering or driving or cleaning or whatever the heck they're doing.

So just tell us about yourself and you know, what you do. Are you married? Tell us about your birth. 

Cady: I'm tall, dark, and handsome, first of all. 

Maureen: You are 100 percent accurate. No, no. She's not kidding. That is accurate. She's not kidding.

Cady: I do have long black hair. I am married, and I am a nurse practitioner myself.

I have experience in the ICU. I was a nurse in the hospital for four years before I went into aesthetic nursing, and that's actually what I'm doing now. And My little Isla is three, almost three months old. Next week will be three months. She's 11 weeks old this weekend. So fresh. I know, but it doesn't feel like it.

I feel like I've had her forever. 

Heather: Yeah, it is kind of weird when you first meet them and you're like, oh my god, did I meet you in a past life? Have you been here the whole time? Yeah, like she's my little weeks later, 

Maureen: you're like, wait, who are you? What is happening? Yeah, I don't know you 

Cady: at all. Yeah, I've been married for, oh, Three going on three years 

Maureen: and Isla was your first baby.

Mm hmm 

Cady: my first What was your birth like so my birth was really pretty uneventful I think leading up to my birth was hard because I had to be induced I shouldn't say had to I chose to be induced at 41 weeks. I Didn't plan it that way. Nobody does and so I think I had a little bit of like man I just wish I could go into labor naturally, but it didn't happen like that for me, but I had a really Normal what best case scenario birth.

I had the balloon and then they did a little bit of Pitocin for like two to three hours. And then I just progressed naturally from there. And I just labored and pushed her out in 10 hours. Well, the push was only for 30 minutes. I wouldn't push it. 

Heather: 10 hours of pushing. Yeah. Well, that's wonderful. And I think that is something that people are probably listening and like, wait, wait, didn't she have postpartum insomnia?

I think when we think about that, it's like, Oh, they probably had a traumatic birth or they probably didn't have a supportive partner or, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe. And it's like, Nope, it 

Maureen: was like, it can be totally random. Yeah, 

Cady: it definitely was for me. Nothing I ever saw coming. And I. I think about it a lot like chicken or the egg, right?

Like, was it the insomnia and then like anxiety or depression or was it that first and then the insomnia? But I have, and this is where I feel like it's so important for people to understand is that I came from a family of zero trauma. I have a, what I would perceive as like a very healthy relationship with my husband.

He's very supportive. It was so supportive through my labor and throughout my entire pregnancy. I want to say I've never struggled with anxiety and depression before. And I mean, I think I'm an A type personality, so I always want things to be like, exactly, I guess, kind of how I anticipate them. I think maybe that was my biggest downfall.

And so my husband would say like, you're anxious. Like you, you're an anxious person. I'm like, I don't have anxiety. Like, I just want things to go the way I want them to. And like, I probably have a plan. A, B, C, and D. So I don't have to worry about like, oh my gosh, like this didn't work out for me. 

Maureen: That's called coping with anxiety.

It is, but it sounds like it's manageable. And this, this wasn't like some big clinical issue you were dealing with and medicating for a long time. Like as far as risk factors go for having an episode like this, we, we didn't really have many, right? 

Heather: And it's also probably pretty damn hard to study.

Because, you know, we can't go very long without sleep without something bad happening. So it's not like you can quit, get in a research study if you're struggling with this, you know. And they're like, how 

Maureen: many postpartum moms do you want to try sleeping, like not sleeping for five days? I don't know. Yeah, you can't.

We don't 

Cady: really do that. You can't do that. Especially because they're already like, not sleeping because the baby's up. And so it's like, yeah, let me just sign up to make it a little bit worse. Nobody's going to do that. Well, and 

Heather: did you feel like when you were explaining this? Initially, and you're like, I can't sleep.

People were like, yeah, hon, you had a baby. Like sleep is really hard to come by. Did you get that a lot? I did. 

Cady: And I, the worst, the absolute worst people would say, just sleep when the baby sleeps. 

Maureen: I mean, I also vacuum when the baby vacuums, shower when the baby showers. 

Cady: I mean, it was the least helpful piece of advice that anybody could have said.

And honestly, like, I don't think so. I saw you. I had her on a Friday. Okay. I saw Heather in office on Monday because I went home on Sunday night. And I think that maybe you sleep in 

Maureen: the hospital. 

Cady: So okay, so let me let me like set that up. So I went in on Thursday night. To be induced and I thought we were just going to do site attack or something and they told me like you'll probably sleep overnight and then in the morning we'll like start Pitocin and do the whole thing.

So I woke up Thursday morning, just did my normal day, went to the hospital and then started, started labor and then it progressed quicker. So I was up all night and then Friday I had her Friday morning, family came, everybody came, a million freaking people came. So I was up all Friday. So. That's kind of where like the sleep deprivation started and then of course like they come into the room and they're like, oh, can I get your baby's blood pressure?

And they're unsynchronized, 

Maureen: Mom and baby checks. 

Cady: Yeah. And I even said like, can we, like, she just fell asleep. Can we wait? They're like, no. I'm like, are you kidding me? And I did this multiple times. I know they need to check on the baby, but I'm like, oh my gosh. Okay. So no, I didn't sleep in the hospital.

But then Sunday I went home and. It was our first night home, and I told my family and his family, because he is a really supportive family, I don't, we don't need help. Like, I want to do this alone at first. Like, if I need help, we'll call you in. And that night, you know, it was like the night where she just constantly feeds and cluster feeds.

Like, that was the night when my milk had started to come in. And I didn't know how to soothe her. I'm a first time mom, and I didn't grow up around babies. I didn't know how to soothe her, and she was not latching very well, so the breastfeeding journey was challenging for us, too, and she, I never woke my husband up for help that night because I was just like, There's nothing he can do.

And then I woke up that morning. It was like six o'clock and I was in tears and I'm like, she's been up all night. Like, I don't even know if she's eaten. Like, I just need help. Like, I need to sleep for like 10 minutes. So when you say you woke up that morning, was I ever asleep? 

Heather: Was you, was you ever asleep?

Was I ever asleep? That's how my husband 

Cady: talks. Was you asleep? 

Heather: I was 

Cady: never asleep. You're like 

Heather: in that weird dream phase where your brain is like you're sort of sleeping like a dolphin swimming where you're like just doing the 

Cady: thing. I mean truthfully I actually wasn't asleep because she was up and down and I was up and down.

So there was never any sleep that night either. It was more of like me laying down and closing my eyes and then hearing her and then me sitting up. So like there wasn't sleep that night. I say sleep because I don't know, I guess I was trying, but Well, 

Maureen: and like, light dozing, just even, I mean, if you got minutes here and there, it's not enough to accumulate into restful sleep.

It actually 

Cady: feels a lot more like torture. Feels worse. Yeah, so then, it does. Eight o'clock, as soon as Jurgis clinic opened, I called. And I, and I had seen them, like, prior, when I was in my pregnancy, and I was like, I just need help, like, I need to see somebody. And I thought at that time, it was like, I, the sleep Insomnia wasn't on my mind.

It was more of like the I need help getting this baby to eat and to latch. And then when I saw Heather, I was like, I'm having a hard time sleeping. And then she basically was like, we have to get this under control now because if we don't, you're going to go into a psychosis. And like, we can't do this. So I'm like, yeah, I mean, you're right.

Like, we can't. But in your mind, though, just to give you some 

Heather: credit, It makes logical sense to be like, fix this breastfeeding issue because if she can feed better, she'll sleep and then I'll sleep. Yeah. And then I can sleep when the baby sleeps. Right. Right. Yeah. So like, your logical brain was like, breastfeeding needs to be fixed.

And we talk about that a lot where people have What they think is a breastfeeding problem, and it's actually not, but breastfeeding feels like something that they can control when they can't control the other thing. So, like, if you're a provider listening to this, always ask the next question. 

Maureen: Yes, you never know.

It might be a marital problem. It might be a sleep problem. Might be, I mean, it can be so many things, but that always feels like the one thing you can fix, right? Mm hmm. Yeah. 

Cady: And I think that, so, I, what was it? What did we start me on? I tried so many things. What did I start you on? I'll tell you. No, hold on.

Oh my gosh. Buspirone! Oh yeah. Yeah, so, we tried buspirone, and I tried that for like, two days. And it was not helping me sleep at all. I just wasn't sleeping. Yeah, 

Maureen: so what were those next two nights like? Were they just the same? Were they different? 

Cady: No, it was horrible. So my mother and father in law were in town and so like, in my mind, the definition of insomnia is given the opportunity to sleep, you either cannot stay asleep or you can't get to sleep.

And I was experiencing both. And my husband was like, I will let you sleep, like I'll wake you up if she's hungry and my mother in law and father in law, they're like, we've got her go upstairs and try to sleep. And that was the second worst thing that you could say aside from like sleep in the baby sleeps is why don't you try to take a nap?

Like those words try. Yeah. And it was like, okay. So at this point I was trying, so I'd go upstairs and then an hour later I'd come down the stairs and they'd be like, did you sleep? And I'm like. I haven't fallen asleep. And so it was like, I can't explain this in any other way. Aside from like the following, like three days put me into this spiral of being anxious about attempting to sleep.

I mean, and I mean that in like the purest way, like I genuinely would lay down. And if I would fall asleep, I would wake up an hour later and I tried to fall asleep and I'd lay there for like three, four hours and then I became obsessed with like looking at the clock. 

And 

Cady: it was, and I know that like moms do this all the time, but I was like obsessed with looking at the clock to see like, what time did I fall asleep?

How long has it been now that I've woken up? Am I going to die? Yeah. And it would be like 45 minutes and I'm like. Oh my god, like I've literally slept for 45 minutes. And so it was this repetitive cycle of like, well, why don't you just try to sleep? Why don't you just try to go nap? And I'm like, please stop telling me that like I physically I physically cannot and the thing that was crazy is I wasn't tired.

I did not feel tired. I didn't sort of 

Maureen: got past that, you know, after what the first three days you stop feeling those cues from your body. 

Cady: I was, I think, so like, I thought maybe it was the adrenaline. And then I was like, because I did not get an epidural. And so I thought, like, is this shit like because I didn't get an epidural.

And I'm just on this crazy high, like, I'll get the damn epidural. I don't care. Like, I don't want this to happen anymore. But, yeah. The, I don't remember, maybe it was Tuesday, I reached out to the doctor that delivered us and I didn't talk to Heather for two weeks and it was nothing personal. I was just simply like, I, I need, I've got to figure something out and I was like, 

Heather: Oh, I guess the boost bar, the eye mask and the earplugs 

Cady: I recommended 

Heather: worked 

Cady: well.

And then I, I asked you to that night, like, can I take melatonin and you sent me your podcast? So I had like listened to it, but my doctor, Alexander had recommended like, try some melatonin. It's okay, start with a small dose, and she even recommended it was some other herbal, I can't remember at this point.

She prescribed me, well, I started, Advan, which I never ended up taking, and Ambien. 

Maureen: Oh, is Ambien the one that makes you do really weird stuff? Yes, yeah, 

Cady: it's the one that, like, apparently you can hallucinate on. Yes. So, like, I was a little afraid to take that, but everyone swore. Yeah. You take this. you're going to get sleep.

So I'm like, and mind you, I'm also trying to breastfeed through this too. Cause I'm like, do I need to give this up? Did not love the Ambien. 

Like 

Heather: I, I was kind of surprised about that. So like the Ativan is actually okay. I was a little like, Ooh, Ativan. And then I looked it up and I was like, yeah, no, that makes sense.

And it was just, And it really was fine and like visceral you had tried also and visceral didn't do anything for her. No, the visceral, the visceral. That is what worked. Okay, so you didn't take the Ativan. Correct. Took the 

Cady: Ambien. So what 

Maureen: happened with the Ambien? 

Cady: Tell 

Maureen: me about it. I didn't 

Cady: have any hallucinations.

So the very first, so I took five milligrams and I did, I fell asleep pretty quick the first time. And then I was afraid to take 10 milligrams because I was like, yeah, I'm so naive to this stuff. I don't want to like overdo it. So I woke up two hours later. Which again, like, I should have slept way longer than that.

I woke up after two hours and in my head I was like, that's a win. I just slept two hours and then I couldn't go back to sleep. So I was like, I'm going to take another Ambien. So I tried to take another Ambien and I couldn't go back to sleep. And I had also taken Bisterol that night or maybe it was Melatonin.

I had a Mod Podge, honestly, and it was so irresponsible of me, but I was like anything. You don't have 

Maureen: a lot of, you know, I don't know, responsibility to have at that point when you're so far into sleep debt, you're also postpartum, you're also trying to breastfeed, like somebody else needs to manage that.

Cady: Yeah. So I tried that second, the, the Ambien, the second time, and I was just awake the whole night after that. And I mean, truly for like a solid two weeks, I was getting one to two hours a night and not napping during the day at all, like truly one to two hours and dead. day. And the next night I took the Ambien, it was like probably the worst night that I had ever had.

I, it was three in the morning after I tried to go to, I probably fed her at like 11 or something. And I was just up for four hours. And I was like, woke my husband up, which I hated doing, but I'm like, I can't sleep. And I was losing my mind. I'm hitting myself in the head. I mean, it was, I mean, it was pure torture.

It was truly torture. And I was on Ambien at that point, three o'clock in the morning, walking the streets in the pouring rain, like bawling my eyes out to my husband of like, I don't know what is wrong with me. Like I'm, I'm literally never going to get better. And he's like, Cady, like, he's just reassuring me, like, you're going to be okay.

Like, we are going to get through this. And I'm like, I, I just feel like I'm like, I have no other option, but to be here. But like. I cannot be a mom like this. Like, I can't be a mom like this and I'm not sleeping. And he's like, Cady, it's going to get better. It's just the hormones. And I'm like, it doesn't just feel like the hormones.

Like, he's like, you're going to be okay. And I'm like, I don't think I am. The Vistaril, I don't know if it ended up working or if it was psychological, but at some point. I continued to take it. I was taking it every four hours, which I was worried it was going to dry my supply. But these milkers for days, these milkers were milking.

Maureen: So, and that's not like, you know, that can't be the priority when your body's literally like breaking down. Yeah. I was like, I don't, 

Heather: I literally don't care if this 

Cady: dries up your supply. Like, what are we doing? Yeah. And I had a couple, I had, I had so much support from my family and My husband's family. So I mean it was to the point where like I was feeding her every like three or four hours, whatever Probably every three at night or two if she told me to But my mom and my mother in law like they were staying with Isla like Isla was in their bedroom not in my bedroom And she was sleeping so much at night and I couldn't sleep.

It wasn't that she was waking me up. It was just, I physically couldn't sleep. 

Maureen: Yeah. Did you ever get to the point where you considered like inpatient treatment, like really next level stuff? 

Cady: No. Well, I shouldn't say yes and no. I was like not wanting to get to that point, but I had said to myself, like, I'm going to have to be in the hospital.

I'm not going to be able to take care of her. Like I'm such a failure. And you know, as a first time mom, like. I wanted to be the one to take care of her in every facet like I wanted to I didn't like that my Mom and my mother in law were like sleeping with her in the bassinet in their room And it was just I felt so I felt like such a failure.

Yeah, and to have never experienced things like this I was so out of control. I was so out of control. I was hopeless. I was powerless I couldn't do anything and you know, like I My OB was like, well, let's try, you know, obviously all of the medication, but when I kept telling her, like it was failing, she was just like, okay, try to get a good routine.

Try to, you know, all of the things. So like, try to turn on the TV at night, try to drink this tea. And I'm like, 

Maureen: okay, I think we're past that. Yeah. And I 

Cady: have like so much. I mean, I know this sounds dramatic when I say this, but like, so much trauma surrounding all the things that happened, like, during that time frame, like, I had to turn the clock around.

Maureen: Yeah. 

Cady: I, like, the video games my husband was listening to on YouTube during, like, that period, like, it was just like, An endless, I felt like I was just being like held captive and tortured inside, and it was the strangest thing. It's not 

Maureen: dramatic. 

Cady: It felt dramatic. Well, 

Heather: it is a form of torture. Exactly. We use it.

Well, we don't use it, but other people. When 

Maureen: were we torturing our last patient? Yeah, we do that. At Busy 

Heather: Moms Healthcare, we torture patients. 

Maureen: Yeah. No, it's not dramatic, and there's also like nothing you can do to control the way it's That your brain is processing events during a traumatic period, and the period of insomnia is traumatic.

Heather: And also, especially because you didn't have a lot of risk factors, the constant question of like, why is this happening, probably kept coming up. And for a type A person that like, wants to solve a puzzle, that is like an endless loop of shit. Yeah. Because there's sometimes no answer. Yeah. And we'll, we don't know.

We don't know. I can tell you that from a provider standpoint, I will forever treat postpartum insomnia different because of your case, because I believe that we did check in on you, but maybe didn't hear back from you, I don't know, like you were on my mind, but I would, I didn't realize how severe it probably still was at the time, and I am in a prime position because of my job in healthcare.

To fill that gap, to be that extra person that checks in a little bit more often. And I know you had that with the P3 program through Mon Health. So they were texting you as well. So you were, you were being checked on, which was good. But also, I don't think anyone knew what the next level was. Like Maureen just brought up inpatient treatment.

And I have to be honest, That didn't even occur to me. It didn't occur to me as an option, and I totally would consider that, especially if the visceral every four hours wasn't working. I would also not just jump straight to medication. I'm probably going to recommend an MNRI treatment, like with OT, who does the Maska Tova method or something, to kind of like reset you neurologically.

And I'm probably never going to tell anybody ever again to try to sleep or try to get a better routine. 

Maureen: It does matter, like, and sometimes we forget how impactful language is, you know. 

Cady: So, I know you had said, like, when we talked last time, like, feel free to throw me under the bus. There's nothing to throw you under the bus for, number one.

No juicy gossip. Well, hold on. The only thing I would say is And I don't know if this put me into, like, this headspace of what's going to happen to me, but, like, when you said, like, you can go into a psychosis, like, I, like, I probably wouldn't have told me that, and I know you were so concerned, and absolutely, but, like, looking back on it, I I didn't feel tired in that two weeks, but I was so afraid of what was going to happen to me, and I was afraid of that, because I had seen it, I had read about the psychosis, and I'm like, I'm gonna die.

I'm gonna 

Heather: die! Yeah, yeah, I, I, there's a way to tell patients about, like, when to call me again. Like, that's the main thing, where it's like, hey, don't just be like, I'm having trouble sleeping, because people do have trouble sleeping. In a more normal way that they have trouble and then there's you. Okay. So like when I see people at like four months postpartum and they're like, I still haven't slept more than two hours at a time, they're not going into psychosis, but that is a problem.

And often that is like a feeding problem. That's that does apply to me more specifically. But I did not realize at the time when I was like, Hey, Okay. Psychosis, that that could be contributing to anxiety, chicken egg scenario where you get stuck in a cycle. Well, and it's definitely 

Maureen: a hard thing to figure out, like, how do I inform you of risks without freaking you out.

We're just going to work on that forever. Well, and honestly, 

Cady: like, at that point when I saw you in the office, like, I didn't realize, it didn't escalate until after that. Like, it was bad, but I was just like, I haven't slept in a couple days because I just had a baby a few days ago. Like It, it just got so much worse after that.

Heather: Yeah, you were actually pretty manic at that visit. Where, if you've ever seen a In case you didn't know! She's not joking. She's not joking. If you've ever seen a toddler who's like got a second wind and you know they're like way overtired and they're just like, Kicking it into the seventh gear and they're running circles.

I have 

Maureen: one. A dad of childhood who does that. Yeah. 

Heather: So it was kind of like that where you were like, look how fine I am, but I'm not fine, but I'm here for a plan because I like plans. And I was like, what, what? And you're like, are you okay? Your hair's like piled on the top of your head and you're like, yeah, this is a problem.

And I'm telling you, it's a problem. I'm a nurse practitioner, so I'm going to handle it. But also I might die and it's going to be okay. Fuck Jesus. Yeah. Like, 

Cady: I dunno what to tell you, but, and your husband 

Heather: is like, so chill. Yeah. I know. and I'm looking at him like, how worried are we about like Yeah. You're like, is 

Maureen: this the norm?

Yeah. Like how far from the norm is this? Yeah. 'cause also when we see people for the first time, or, you know, I think you guys had seen each other before. Mm-Hmm. . But sometimes we just don't have a great gauge. Mm-Hmm. . You can't figure out 

Cady: like, is this just like a quirk that they have? How 

Maureen: are Yeah. Are you just quirky?

Heather: Are you funny? Are you trying not to cry? Yeah. Like, are you manic? Because you're trying not to cry. Do we need a good, we definitely need a good cry. But yeah, I would say like, more of a You know, there's actually some research out there that shows that people will fall asleep faster if you tell them to try to stay awake.

Honestly. Yeah, so instead of being like, okay, go try to sleep, be like, yeah, don't worry about sleeping. Stay awake. Not even that, but like, hey, don't worry about sleeping. 

Cady: Just go get a massage. A hundred percent. So I, I ended up like voicing all of this stuff, obviously. And of course, this is just like with every postpartum mom.

The nights are worse. The nighttime feels doomier. Like, it's always like, you're fearful of the night, but like, I couldn't even walk up my stairs at night without flipping on the lights. Because I was so afraid of my bedroom. I wouldn't leave my room without, like, in the morning, like, without opening up all the curtains and turning all the blinds up.

Like, I had to just, I had to do that. And I had told my mom and my husband and my, like, mother and father in law, like, and my dad, I love my dad. Dad, I love you. But just like when you guys tell me to try to sleep, like it makes it worse. And so eventually they kind of like changed more to like, like why don't you just try to rest on the couch?

And like, if you fall asleep, you fall asleep. And if you don't, you don't like whatever. And I'm like, thank you. Taking that pressure off. And yeah. And then eventually I fell asleep on the couch for two hours and I fell asleep organically on my own. Like I had been taking the Vistaril, but like The visceral never made me tired literally ever and ever.

She powered through it. Oh, yeah the visceral I don't know I just maybe took my anxiety down but I was never anxious about my daughter like I was never like oh my god Is she breathing like I never had this concern, so like, I don't even know if I ever was anxious. I don't know. Like, I mean, my husband 

Heather: says I was, but I'm like, well, anxiety is like the slut of mental health disorders where it just kind of tags along with everything else, like 

Cady: depression and anxiety, 

Heather: bipolar and 

Cady: anxiety, insomnia and anxiety.

And then, so eventually I ended up falling asleep on the couch and then I, I felt like was almost like the confidence that I needed to like, tell myself that like, I can do this because it was not a physiological issue. It was all psychological. Like, I was like, catastrophizing. I don't know if that's a word, but like, catastrophizing.

We're making it a word. Catastrophizing. You were very close. Catastrophizing. Wait. Tongue twister. 

Maureen: We're good. Just move on. 

Cady: Catastrophizing. You got it? Yeah. Yeah. But like, In my head, like, the, everything surrounding sleep, and so, I was basically making it to where, like, I couldn't sleep, and so, I was making it so much worse for myself.

So then I ended up like falling asleep at some point. It was like, I was like praising the Lord. Like, this is amazing. Like I can really do this. And then I'd have a couple of great nights and then I'd have a night where I didn't sleep again. In the next day, it was just like tears the whole day. And it was, it was just like PTSD surrounding like sleep anxiety.

And then I had like a lot more, Nights where I was sleeping and my baby, of course, like it was fine. I was able to fall asleep Literally like two nights ago. I woke up at 4 in the morning and I was like, oh my gosh my boobs are full because my great baby has been sleeping through the night for two weeks now and I'm like okay, so I'm gonna express some of this so I did that and then I laid back down and I was awake for an hour and I was losing my mind because I was like, this is it's happening again It's happening again.

I woke up my husband. I'm like I can't sleep. He's like, I couldn't sleep either. And I'm like, I'm like, why do you make it sound so like chill? He's like, I couldn't, it like took me two hours to go to sleep. Because it's normal. 

Heather: It's normal. Because, because that's the other thing, like what I was saying just a little bit ago about there is like the normal interrupted sleep, which Of having a newborn where you're like, well, that sucked, I guess I'm starting my day at 4 a.

m. now because going back to sleep for two hours is just dumb and I'm going to wake up more tired. And then there's, you know, what you were going through, but I totally see. And also, I just want to say, I don't think it was all in your head. There was probably an initial insult, some kind of like neurological rewiring or hormonal something.

And then probably when I was like, hey. This could be psychosis. Then it started to become a little bit more of a mental spiral. 

Maureen: Well, and I think it doesn't necessarily matter, you know, how much it was in your head because that becomes a physiological issue, right? Where when we have this mental anxiety or whatever we're having, that raises your heart rate and it changes your breathing.

And then your body's like, why would we sleep when our heart rate's 110? That's not happening. And then, you know, you just continue on that spiral and then it is a physiological issue and then your hormones are changing and then, 

Cady: you know, And I could feel myself when I was thinking about sleep. Like I could feel myself getting hot.

Like I could feel myself literally like uneasy. It was just, Are you doing therapy? I was doing therapy. I was seeking in Morgantown, like, somebody who specializes in CBT because the Cognitive Behavior Therapy is actually, like, what is most recommended for insomnia. Yeah, I'm 

Maureen: doing some CBTI. It's fun. For yourself?

Mm hmm. Oh. What does the I stand for? I don't know. Insomnia. Yeah. Oh, you 

Heather: have insomnia? 

Maureen: I have some sleep problems. I don't know how clinical like insomnia it is, but yeah, I'm mad. I didn't know that about you. 

Cady: I did do it for a couple of sessions, but I had done it. I did it after I was already kind of like over my hump looking back on it.

I probably would have started that a little bit sooner, but I will. I will say, and she is wonderful. I don't know how much she, like, understood what I was experiencing. Like, she was great to just have somebody to talk to and help me work through my mental, like, part of it. But I don't necessarily, I didn't have a ton of, like, it could have been more helpful.

Maureen: Yeah, well, for everybody out there, if you can't Find somebody that specializes in that. There is an app called CBTI coach. It's like a little purple icon And you know, it is recommended you like work with a behavioral therapist while you're doing it who can help you But you input your sleep information and you talk, you know You tell the app like how you were feeling or you rested what your day's like And over the course of each week, it gives you a recommendation for when to go to sleep and when to wake up.

Oh, 

Cady: that's interesting. And 

Maureen: it does like slowly sleep deprive you a little bit and then add sleep back till you find like your perfect 

Cady: time to go to sleep. Oh my gosh, I'm not sure I could sign up 

Maureen: for that. Yeah, so it's not it's not like that method isn't Always recommended for everybody. 

Heather: She's getting hot and sweaty right now.

I'm like, don't talk about not sleeping. Stop it. 

Maureen: And also it's like, you don't necessarily have to follow that exactly. You could still use the app without following the recommendations. But it was extremely helpful for me to be like, Oh, okay, that is actually when I should be going to bed. Yeah. And then I'd naturally wake up at the time it tells me to wake up and I'm only getting Like, seven hours of sleep, but that feels good.

But less than six is bad. I wonder if it's More than eight is bad. Is it like 

Cady: trying to wake you up like when you're not in your REM? 

Maureen: I am not totally sure, but it's trying to find your sleep efficiency where it's the amount of sleep you get, where your body feels the most rested. 

Cady: Yeah. 

Maureen: Yeah. 

Cady: I know that if you like wake up in a sleep cycle, you're not going to be like as rested.

That's interesting. 

Heather: There are some apps out there that are linked to wearables that they're trying to do some research on with postpartum moms, but I almost wonder how much that's going to actually affect it because it's not like a, A double blind study, you know, where it's like, 

Maureen: start 

Heather: anyway, does wearing the wearable make you paranoid about someone watching how much you're sleeping, which keeps you awake?

Maureen: I, I use an aura ring partially for that. Like my therapist recommended, I get something to actually see how many times I was waking up at night and I definitely think too much about it sometimes. And I'm like, Oh no, is it like on right? Is it not going to read? And then I just take it off and put it away.

And I'm like, not tonight. 

Heather: It would freak me right out. I mean, also what was your relationship with sleep like before this and what were your expectations about what sleep was going to look like postpartum? 

Cady: So I never had issues with sleeping. I mean, I could fall asleep on a dime before. I mean, I had no issues falling asleep anywhere.

Actually, it's kind of funny. My husband literally has like a photo album of me sleeping just in everywhere. And so it's like kind of the irony. I know. And 

Heather: we just found the cover of our episode 

Cady: for the website. It's literally me like, in every photo. But I will say like, during my third trimester, I actually did have a little bit of insomnia, like, but not everybody told me like, Hey, you're probably not going to sleep in your third trimester.

And it's 

Maureen: pretty common to experience some degree of sleep disturbance in the third trimester. What degree is normal though is very debated. 

Cady: It wasn't in the thing is to like, it never affected my, my mental health when I would be like, I've been up since four and it's six o'clock, I'm just going to go work out.

And then life 

Maureen: is different with that estrogen, how you want, 

Cady: I'm like, I'm a rock 

Maureen: star and that falls off a cliff postpartum. 

Heather: Yeah, 

Maureen: you're 

Heather: like, God, my butt's so big and I love it. I love me. Then you have a baby and you're like, everything is hard. Yeah. Well, what is one thing that you thought would have been helpful that you didn't get?

Cady: I don't know. I mean, I think that everybody that I had reached out to was trying. I just feel like nobody really knew. When the P3 program had reached out to me and she had also actually reached out to my mom because like they were really really concerned about me and if I wasn't aware, I guess of what like that what I was, if I didn't have a little bit stronger of a support system and if I didn't have the medical knowledge that I did, like, I can't imagine being somebody who like was afraid to seek help.

And so it was P3 program reach out. And so I think that, like, I wish that was more standard. I mean, my OB didn't reach out to me to be like, Hey, how are you doing? It was just simply like the P3 program, which I think is wonderful. And so that was a huge help. Something that definitely didn't work and this is definitely my fault is I was reaching out to too many people for help, 

Maureen: which like, I mean, there's what can you do?

And I'm like, 

Cady: so as shotgun approach. So I think that I was getting too many like heads butting and different ideas and perspectives. And that was hard. So I would say find somebody that you like trust and them help you streamline. And also with the medication I was on, I was like trying and then trying something different and trying something different.

So my PCP, who I also had reached out to, cause she's a friend, was like, why don't you stick with one thing? 

Maureen: Yeah. 

Cady: Give it a few days. And if it doesn't work, we will abort that mission. And. Anyway, so that's when I was like, fine, it's only Vistaril. And then I went with Vistaril and my Lexapro too, which, mind you, was, I feel like, very helpful too.

Sure. 

Heather: So. In so many ways, yes. All right. Well, what's the one thing you want people listening to know or to remember? 

Cady: I guess more so not necessarily regarding insomnia because I don't think that, I hope that most people won't experience the insomnia like I did, but just with mood disorders, postpartum in general, because it I know is like one in five people experience like the postpartum mood disorders and that's crazy.

That's a lot of women that even if you've never experienced it before, it's totally normal. And we really have no control over it. Like that plummet of. Estrogen and progesterone, like it isn't you. I mean, it's you, but like it is not you and it will level out and coming from somebody who really, really, really was convinced it was not going to get better.

It does. It actually does get better. And if you do have insomnia, you will sleep again and hopefully sooner rather than later, but just seek help for sure. And somebody that can like, Be supportive of you. 

Heather: Well, thank you for coming and being so brave to talk in our tiny closet with a microphone in your face I know that there's somebody out there listening right now who feels hopeful that they can take a nap now 

Maureen: Yeah, I'm hoping somebody googled postpartum insomnia and they found this and they listen they're like, okay 

Heather: Maybe 

Maureen: I can do 

Heather: it Yeah, you can do it.

Spoiler alert. It's gonna happen. Don't try to sleep. Just go get a two hour long massage and then go drink some chamomile tea and read a book and, you know, rest your 

Cady: eyes. Yeah. And then tell the people to turn around when they say sleep when the baby sleeps. Tell them you don't understand. Right 

Maureen: back out the front door, 

Heather: friends.

Oh gosh. All right. Well, we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, we're gonna give an award in the alcove. 

Maureen: Well, Heather, thank you so much for inviting Cady on our 

Heather: show. I feel like I learned a lot just Hearing her say it from top to bottom again, especially now that she's in a much better place, it's good to kind of like take a step back and look at the whole picture of what happened and my part that I played in it.

So it's very rare as a provider that you actually get constructive feedback. In this way. 

Maureen: And honestly, we really miss the ending of a lot of stories. Right. Particularly ones that are complicated beyond breastfeeding. We might see someone for one or two consults and then never hear from them again.

Heather: Yep. Yeah, well, we really enjoyed having her on there, and if you or someone you know is struggling, please send them this episode, and encourage them to reach out to somebody for help, because it, it can be dangerous, and it's mostly very horrible to deal with. You know, not to freak people out, but it's not something that we should brush off at all.

And if you're a provider out there 

Maureen: and you want more resources Well we did do an episode about insomnia medications and herbs way back when. That was episode 28. So, sorry for the quality, but the information is good. So, definitely Take a listen to that if you're working with a provider who is unsure what medications are safe for breastfeeding.

Also, don't forget to reach out to the Infant Risk Center or check on the LactMed portion of, on the NIH website. Those are all really good resources to help you move forward. 

Heather: Yep. Hope you guys can rest easy tonight. And if you can't, use those resources and please know that we're thinking of you and we know that you will get through it.

Absolutely. Oh, this award goes out to Grace, who just actually traveled with her baby to Europe. And her baby is nine months old, and so having a nine month old myself, I am really feeling like, holy shit, this person is amazing. She took a train all over Europe with her baby, packed light, breastfed along the way, which is helpful for the gear that you have to pack, which is really awesome.

And she's got all kinds of cute pictures of herself nursing. All over on her travels with her and her partner. So we're going to give you the European Titty Tour Award because why not? 

Maureen: Yes good job doing that. I don't know if any of us could have done it. We're very proud of you. And thank you for being a listener.

And we do have an Apple review. Would you like to read it, Maureen? Yeah, this is a new one titled, This is My New Favorite Podcast. Hell yeah it is. By KLJ KitKat. And they say, I'm currently binging this podcast and it is helping me heal my breastfeeding slash pumping slash lactation trauma. And validating a lot of frustrations I had in my experience with my first baby, who's now eight and a half months old.

I am an extreme low milk supplier to the point where I never fully developed any supply never got to breastfeed, passed day three in the hospital, and have been trying to figure out what the tipping point was for me. Between being a first time mom, C section delivery, 37 weeker, jaundice, and nurse's pushing formula, and bottle agenda, And then baby wanting nothing to do with the boob ever again, plus adding health stuff, Hashimoto's, postpartum hypertension, and type one diabetes, and then not knowing what to do with pumping phalanges, etc.

I was so underprepared and overwhelmed, but. I'm learning so much now by listening to you two, and I'm highly entertained by your vibes and banter. I'm planning to be so prepared for the next baby and I'm absorbing all of this info you are giving us listeners. Thanks for being awesome and entertaining.

Heather: Gosh, I can't even believe you made it three days. I feel like she 

Maureen: set the bar higher for us. Yeah. I'm like, 

Heather: okay, we can do it for you. We can give you the best info. We do prenatal consults for lactation. That's true. So if you're really looking to prepare and your first time felt like a runaway train, like that situation we can definitely kind of help you reverse engineer what happened, make sure it doesn't happen again, and most importantly, just get you in the system so when you do have an issue, you know, because most people do have one issue or two.

You can call and it's a very easy jump to like hop on a telehealth. It's not like a brand new patient we've met before. You know who we are. So don't hesitate to reach out if that's your situation. We'd love to help you with that. 

Maureen: Yeah. And thank you so much listener for your review. We appreciate it.

Heather: And thank you for listening to another episode of the Milk Minute. 

Maureen: The way that we change this absolutely messed up system that barely supports us in breastfeeding is by educating ourselves, as that listener said, our friends, our family, and sometimes our health care providers. If 

Heather: you found value in the episode that we produced for you today, you can show us some love back by joining our Patreon at Patreon.

com slash MilkMinutePodcast, where you're going to get all kinds of behind the scenes pictures and videos and just little antics from Maureen and I from behind the scenes. And also first dibs on the award section of the alcove. So if you're really just dying to hear your name over the air, that's how you do it.

Maureen: Absolutely. Well, thank you guys for listening and we'll see you next week. Bye bye.